Note About Absence From Blog
September 2, 2011
Leonardo Da Vinci Was A Vegan
September 9, 2011

Vegans Who Eat Honey


I’m one of those vegans who eat honey. Once, someone told me I wasn’t even a vegan for eating honey, and other times I’ve met vegans who didn’t bat an eyelid at it. This article is for people who are in between, or are otherwise interested in a discussion about food ethics πŸ™‚

My main argument in favour of eating honey is: I can’t be perfect. I kill trees for my toilet paper every day. I use modern technology which generally supports the rape of the environment and the bringing about of climate change (and probably the odd animal is tortured somewhere along the line too). Sometimes I accidentally eat something that has an animal product in, or accidentally wear clothing that has some leather in it.

Causing Harm

Basically, causing harm is an endemic part of modern society, and unless I live like a caveman I can’t avoid it. It’s only by leveraging the power of modern society, though, that I can do good, which potentially could make all of the harm worth it.

A lot of meat eaters use the fact that we can’t avoid all harm as an excuse to eat meat. I don’t agree with that. I believe that we can and should try to minimise the harm we cause. But I also believe that it’s impossible to be perfect. At some point we have to draw the line where more effort in minimising harm isn’t going to be worth it. Or maybe we just don’t have more effort to spare.

I know making a dietary change is effort. I’ve wanted to be a 100% raw foodist for a couple of years now. I know that it’s the best diet in terms of environmental impact and plant welfare, to say nothing of the good effects it has on me. But so far it’s been much too much effort for me to maintain sustainably. I’ve accepted that. I’ve let myself not be perfect.

So it’s OK even if you’re a meat eater who can see that making a change would reduce the harm you cause. So long as you can stay aware of the impact of your actions, of the potential for (external) gain by changing them, then it’s okay to take your time and accept when you’re not strong enough.

I think later the resources (internal or external) to make a change will come. So long as you stay aware, and you don’t let your lack of resources be an excuse for sinking back into unconsciousness.


Vegans Who Eat Honey

As for the ethics of being a vegan who eats honey, I see it as somewhere between eating animals and eating plants. At times, I’m even unsure whether the harm to plants might be more intolerable.

Bees, like plants, have short life cycles, making the death of a bee less tragic than the death of a long lived animal. I also get the feeling that the worker bees are made to be more β€œexpendable” somehow than most animals are. They often die when attacking to defend their hive.

Whatever the reason, I don’t feel as connected to the hurt bees go through as the hurt an animal goes through. I’m sure it’s invasive and horrible to go through your hive being ransacked for honey, but somehow I don’t know if bees feel it all on such an intense level as animals.

I wonder if I would change my mind if I witnessed bee farming. I’m sure I wouldn’t do the worst practises myself if I was there – and maybe I wouldn’t do any form of bee farming myself if I came to experience it. I don’t know.

But here’s the clincher: I don’t eat much honey. It’s not daily, not weekly, and I probably go some months without eating it. Which is why making a big effort to give up honey isn’t worth it for me.

It may seem more effort to write this article than the subject deserves, then. Except that vegans often give honey eating a lot of thought, so I wanted to give my perspective. More than that, I wanted to write about self-acceptance and letting yourself not be perfect. Being vegan – or, in whatever way, trying to reduce the harm you cause – is enough effort without torturing yourself about the details.

By the way, I also reserve the right to be wrong. Maybe later on I’ll write an article about how I’ve decided that giving up honey permanently is worth the effort for me after all.

Well, it’s not worth the effort now; what I’m saying is that maybe I’ll feel it worth the effort later on, and that that’s okay, too.

Note before you comment: I do not allow flame comments through, and additionally, I don’t allow comments here that say “you are just NOT vegan if you eat honey, end of story”. That’s not an argument, that’s dogma.

Addition 1

It has come to my attention that some people consider honey to not be vegan because it’s part of the definition created by Donald Watson, the originator of the term “vegan”.

I think that’s a bad argument, mostly because it shows a sort of blind obedience to what an authority says, kind of like a religion. You have to be exactly how the God of veganism has deigned you to be?

Another thing to bear in mind is that a word is how you use it, not how it’s defined. I know most people would call the way I eat vegan; both the way I eat and my philosophy is in line with vegan principles. It would be a waste of time to try and invent a new word for the way I eat. No-one would understand it, and the only upside is that strict(er) vegans get to maintain the purity of their idealism.

The point is to make a difference. Not to be extremely successful in nitckpicking the fine details of a philosophy.

Addition 2

13/06/2013

Funnily enough, almost immediately after writing this article, I started researching vegan arguments against eating honey a bit more and finally decided, “Well, I wouldn’t do this myself, so I’d rather not pay anyone to do this.”

It wasn’t a very passionate decision. And I didn’t write about it because 1) I didn’t care, and 2) I didn’t want to feel bound to my new tentative resolution.

Since then – it has been almost 2 years – I have never bought a jar of honey. I also generally avoid stuff that says it has honey in it, but if there’s a product I really want and can’t substitute easily, or if someone offers me something, I’ll take it.

That’s a very small amount of honey overall in the last two years. The amount of insect suffering this adds up to doesn’t come close to the massacre I partook in when I hired someone to rid my house of bedbugs. And I challenge any vegan not to do the same in the same situation. Bedbugs are evil.

What I’m saying is: I hardly eat honey now. I still think people who eat honey can call themselves vegan.

Addition 3

27/07/2013

This article did well on Google so I occasionally get comments on it.

It shocks and disappoints me how vegans who want to consider themselves “conscious” can get so shaming, judgmental and negative when expressing their opinion. Rest assured that I won’t publish any comment in this vein.

What’s interesting is that yesterday I had a minute-long struggle with myself over killing a tomato plant which for some reason was on its slow way to an early grave anyway. (The leaves were going purple and dropping off, one by one).

As an experiment, I tried to maintain my full empathy with the plant and still go ahead and cut. And I just couldn’t.

I still haven’t killed that plant.

The lesson? The lesson is, who are you to have a problem with me placing a hierarchy on the suffering of living beings, with animals being more important than insects, and insects being more important than plants? You do the same, because plants have feelings.

We have to prioritise the suffering we aim to avoid.

No one is perfect.

Stop trying to think you are perfect just because you are vegan.


 

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Leave a Reply

64 Comments

  1. Isla Kay says:

    That’s interesting, our views on honey are basically the same. I eat honey, but it’s not a priority for me. I also see insects as a middle ground between plants and animals. I sometimes describe myself as an empirical vegan, which means that my diet reflects the suffering I observe and the emotional experience it evokes in me.
    Question: “I’ve wanted to be a 100% raw foodist for a couple of years now. I know that it’s the best diet in terms of environmental impact and plant welfare…” Just curious about how raw food is better for the environment and plants than a non-raw vegan diet.

  2. Angel Flinn says:

    Hi Andrew,

    You (and your readers) might be interested to read this recently-published piece on the subject of honey and the exploitation of bees.

    http://gentleworld.org/3-reasons-not-to-eat-honey/

    Best,
    Angel

  3. Andrew Gubb says:

    Hi Isla and Angel,

    you guys may be interested that since writing this article – basically immediately after writing it – I kind of said “okay whatever” and stopped eating honey. I still believe in everything I’ve said, just I made the small decision to avoid honey in future because whatever. It’s too “whatever” to even update my blog about it. I still think vegans who make a big deal about honey are getting their priorities backwards. I think vegans who eat honey should be “allowed” to eat honey and still call themlseves vegan. Not that anyone has any official capacity to stop them 8)

    Isla: when I’m in a very sensitive state I realise that I feel a profound respect and empathy towards insects as well as plants. I don’t want to hurt plants or insects. (Though animals are a priority).

    So a fruit based diet – which is the sort of raw foodism I’m talking about – means less hurt to plants. Fruit, hopefully, means no pain to the plant. It also encourages trees to grow which is nice.

    I also read that you can get something like twice the amount of calories per acre from fruit than from grain. If you want I’ll look up the exact figure from google or you can try yourself.

    I’ve also thought of doing a “cooked fruitarian diet”. That is, grains, fruits, vegetable fruits, nuts, and seeds, but nothing that requires the hurting of the plant itself. However, if I get my food from industrial farming, I have no control over the actual practises the plants are subjected to.

  4. Andre says:

    Great article, great comments. A few I’d like to add and answer a couple questions.

    Agreeing with Donald Watson is not the same as ‘blindly following religion’. He is not “The God of Vegan”. HE simply has proposed and codified a basic definition. It’s ok to say….well I’m not vegan anymore !! Basically you want to have that title..but disagree with the agreed upon definition. That’s fine – but to lash out at the originator of the term is illogical. In other words– What stops someone from saying “Well I eat eggs only once a month but I’m a vegan” ? No — they’re vegetarian, not vegan. Anyway. Maybe we call ourselves BEEGANS…I also have a vegan diet PLUS occasional honey.

    It’s not about “having an official capacity to force you to stop calling yourself vegan” Why conflate this discussion with other, heavy stuff about hierarchical society, control structures, being forced to do this or that. No one EVER said tried to force anyone to call them selves vegan or not!! But — words have meaning — and think about the results if people just want to start re-defining words at will –we’d have a much harder time communicating simple ideas.

    “So , you;re a violin player? Great, we’re looking for one. I saw your profile said so”

    “Well, no, really I play ukelele. But I like to call myself a violin player, because it also has four strings, and I used a bow sometimes on my ukelele. So, I call myself that.”

    “Uum…you really shouldn’t call yourself a violin player – its incorrect and confusing..”

    “No!! You can;t make me!! I Will call myself what I want to!! You’re not the boss of me..!”

    Etc. Really stupid, right?

    The problem with not upholding a word as defined — is one I’ve run into. I have been ordering food– and asked “well what kind of stock is in this soup, listed as vegetarian” – and the person has said “Well there’s fish stock in it”

    “What!! that’s not vegetarian!!”

    “Well, yeah — I know this girl, she’s vegetarian, and eats fish, so I figure sometimes you guys eat fish”

    Etc. I have spoke to many chefs thru the years, who have said ” Oh I know this vegan who eats organic butter occasionally”, etc. So — this confusion ALREADY affects us and I urge you all to ALWAYS ask what is in your ENTIRE meal when ordering in a non vegetarian restaurant. There is a place in Annapolis MD : “The Ram’s Head”, that has a “VEGETARIAN BURRITO” listed — and the rice is cooked in chicken stock!! Again — the chef has the attitude “Oh I know vegetarians that eat chicken once inna while”

    So — those vegetarians have made this happen for the rest of us!! Do you see hoe confusing the definition of “vegan” will cause the same for someone trying to avoid honey etc..??

    Anyway – I am IN SUPPORT of the definition of “vegan” being expanded one day. I’m with you. I just also think the word means what it means TODAY and we must respect that.

    The other thing to consider is — “bee” pollen, honey, propolis etc – are all MADE FROM PLANT MATERIAL..in other words the bees are processors or manufacturers. But they USE all vegan substances to make the stuff we then take or steal or share from them, depending on your perspective.

    @ Isla — raw food uses less resources because…you’re not cooking it!! You use less gas, electricity etc, because you only soak your food or eat it as is. You are not passing the cooking fuel usage to some company in california or across the globe — who then uses more fuel to ship the now heavier item (in a container like a can or plastic box). Then you re-heat it — using fossil fuels a SECOND time on the same food.

    With raw foods, maybe you use a de-hydrator occasionally -low power usage. You also eat less volume once you are well into it. YES, there is still fuel used to bring those bananas, almonds, kale, lettuce or dulse to your local store, But far less since it;s not processed. Also — most of us can find ways to get local food, in season. I’ve been vegetarian since 1984, vegan most of that time ,and raw from 1999-2001. It was the best two years of my dietary life and I am re-integrating more raw all the time.

    In closing — I think vegetarians should eat bee products , seeing as how important bees are to the whole chain of life.

    -We should support ORGANIC, COMPASSIONATE bee farmers, ones who DO NOT kill the bees in the winter nor take ALL their food.

    -We should realize that bee pollination is the key to most of our food crops, and the recent epidemic sicknesses in the world bee population is something we should pay attention to, and not let Monsanto define the solutions, while we protest against “bee slavery”

    -We should do the impartial research — and admit that bee products like pollen, propolis, royal jelly and raw, organic honey are fantastic for human health – and resonate perfectly with many of our nutrition needs. It’s clear from their nutritional usefulness and ease of access that humans used these substances for millenia. We should rethink this, and support the bee farmers who are NOT the factory farm, poison-gas type. We should NOT support “golden blossom” and other brands that drug the bees, kill off “excess bees” for no reason other that profit, etc etc.

  5. Andrew Gubb says:

    Hey Andre – you wrote a lot! I can’t reply to everything, at least not now, but I feel compelled to say a couple of things.

    1. I feel what you’re saying about definitions. But, I think the difference between a honey-eating vegan and a full vegan is far smaller than the difference between a fish-eating vegetarian and a strict ovo-lacto vegetarian. Intuitively I feel that. I think that the very reason that there isn’t a special word like “beegan” in the popular consciousness is that most people don’t see it being a big enough thing to merit a new word. Yet, some vegans are kind of stuck up and won’t let you join their club if you’re a beegan. Which I think is dumb.

    Lol, I like that word. Beegan.

    I should mention, seeing as you were referring to my tone, that I wrote like this because I’d met quite a few guys who were stuck up like this. Making veganism some big clique and throwing you out of it metaphorically if you didn’t fit their definition of it. Screw that.

    I also don’t believe that the “official” definition by Watson has to be the definition of vegan. A word is how you use it, not how an “official” source has defined it as.

    2. Why is raw food a less impactful diet? Because it takes about half as many acres to produce the same amount of calories if you use fruit rather than grain as a crop. Also, trees are carbon sinks and natural filters for pollution, and more than half of all fruits come from trees.

  6. Andrew Gubb says:

    Clarification. A word is how it’s generally used and understood to be. I think most people understand veganism as a diet which removes meat, eggs, and milk and milk products, as well as a lifestyle that aims to minimise animal suffering. The second part of the definition is the most important, and due to the simple need to set priorities for how you defend animals I think that’s compatible with being a beegan.

  7. meghan says:

    I’ve been a vegan for 9 months now and I absolutely loved honey before that.
    I was the only person in the house who ate the honey, and now about three bottles of it are just sitting un-used in the cupboard.
    I was just wondering, would it make my beliefs redundant if I used up the honey?
    I always wonder about it, as I really don’t know whether bees can feel or not?
    However for me, the reason I stay away from honey is the exploitation and the ‘we can have anything we want’ attitude that most humans possess.

  8. andre says:

    All great points Andrew, and I basically agree. I think however it’s OK to have a definition for words, and following from that it’s OK to be “vegan plus honey”. With all due respect, and not being antagonistic, but I think it’s arbitrary to push back on the definition of ‘vegan’, and not, say, ‘vegetarian’. I disagree that we should split hairs on how different it is to include honey in a vegan diet vs. including fish in a vegetarian diet.

    It’s so, so easy to just continue the way we are — if you are “vegetarian plus fish”, saying so makes it very clear to people, as does “vegan plus honey”. Because I know people who are “Vegan plus soy cheese”…should we just give up the meaning there and call them vegan, because they are 98% animal-free?

    Yes, some people make this an elitist club, I just ignore them. What I’m concerned about is new people/kids understanding these terms — and restaurants/manufacturers and chefs being clear on what’s what. If we keep blurring the lines — then what is ALREADY HAPPENING will continue — chefs will use honey in stuff and say “Look, I know ten ‘vegans’ who eat honey. Leave me alone!”.

    Otherwise — it’s all good, thanks for the chance to comment and you have a great blog!

  9. Karitza says:

    I am completetly vegan…but I do eat honey..sometimes..when I can avoid it I do..but for example if im super hungry getting ditzy and dont have much options I can grab a granola bar that is tecnically vegan..no dairy eggs gelatin tc..but do have honeyng I buy
    everything vegan with no honey etc woth the V of vegan..but I do sometimes pick up a bar or something with honey on it..I dont buy honey jars I buy rice syrup agave and maple so I am contributing to help animals anyway..and its not everyday…so..the products I buy for household use detergents etc arr vegan and eco friendly my makeup also is vegan and not tested on animals, buy ecofriendly toilet paper and napkins and the
    products I ise for my baby too..etc so I dnt think im harming mich…when sometimes buy a thing with honey I also recycle.

  10. Allie says:

    I’m new to Veganism, on week 3! My husband is actually more into it then I am, *in a nice way* scolded me for peeling cheese off a pizza and eating it (I was SOO hungry). However, I love honey. I love the way it cures allergies, I love the a way that when I’m sick, it soothes my throat and makes me feel alive again.

    I truly believe that honey is a gift from the Gods and therefore buying local organic (even raw) honey and supporting local bee farmers who love their bees, is not so bad.

    Now industrial bee farming, and honey bought just anywhere, that’s a different story. COD is a terrible by product of a failing system. My husband is deathly allergic to bees, they could kill him almost instantly, my best friend Katie as well. So I will always have to protect them from bees and bee like insects.

  11. Lilli says:

    Hello, and thank you for this article! I’ve recently cut almost all animal products out of my diet for reasons relating to health, animal welfare, and environmental sustainability. I, too, struggle with the tern “vegan” and the frequent judgement that goes along with it–I still eat (local, natural, ethically harvested) honey, because I also don’t consume white sugar and it’s a tremendous help for my allergies. I made a personal choice to improve my health, karma, and carbon footprint, and I resent the suggestion that my personal lack of willingness comply 100% with a startlingly black-and-white definition removes me from some elite level of compassion. In fact, I usually simply call myself a vegetarian for this reason. The vegetarian/vegan movement is so important, in my opinion, that there simply isn’t room for judgement, self-righteousness, and alienation of those who don’t (or can’t) follow the narrow guidelines of a select few.
    Thanks for addressing this, we can hope that the world of compassionate eating will continue to include those with open minds!

  12. Mo says:

    Hi, just a thought. For vegans who do not eat honey, or use bee products, on ethical grounds, I would hope they are extremely careful where they source their vegan food, as so much produce, particularly in North America, is pollinated by transporting huge trucks of bees around, from one type of monoculture to another.

    This is catastrophic for those bee populations: they are dying in their thousands, and also transmitting the infections to which they are succumbing among wild populations. Also, a great deal of honey is produced purely as a by-product of this system, and is not where the real money is being made.

    So it’s not the demand for the honey itself that is to blame for this particularly vicious form of bee slavery, but the crops they are used to pollinate – much of which is obviously fruit. So unless very careful in purchasing food, an out-and-out vegan could very well end up an unwitting contributor to this.

  13. bansidhe says:

    I eat honey. I call myself Vegan. I think anyone who will nitpick the fact you eat honey and then say you’re not vegan but instead you are vegetarian. Really? I eat no eggs and no dairy. That makes me pretty darn close to vegan as far as I am concerned.

    The thing is, I am not against eating animals. Not at all. Animals eat animals and some animals are eaten. Even the highly intelligent, gentle dolphin eats animals. So if I have no problem with eating animals why don’t I eat them? You see, what I am against is how they are being kept, these factory farms. That is just wrong in my opinion. I eat Vegan because I do not like the way animals are being raised and treated before becoming dinner. Truithfully, if I had a farm and raised my own chickens, I’d eat the eggs. I could kill my goat and eat it. It would be treated well and with respect. And it would serve a great purpose to nourish me. But going to the store and buying a package of meat that came from god knows where from a poor animal that lived it’s life under horrendous conditions is, in my opinion, completely different.

    Anyway, back to bees. I have known bee keepers. They love their bees, study them, care for them. Also there are hundreds of bees in a hive. In nature, these hives are often upset. Bees have evolved to deal with this. This is not true of cattle, where they keep cows penned up with little room, side by side. In nature cows roam. So, I really see this is a huge difference so in my “food-circle of life-Philosophy” it is acceptable to eat honey.

    I could call myself vegetarian.. but that doesn’t seem to bring the same message. If you say you are vegetarian, people go through some trouble to make sure they have non meat items for you at picnics..
    They have potato salad, cheese, buns (which often have whey) etc.. so then you have to say.. oh.. I don’t eat cheese, I can’t eat potato salad because it has mayo which has egg, oh.. no, I can’t eat that Veggie burger on that bun…the bun has whey in it… People look at you as if you are just being rude or worse difficult. But if you say from the beginning you are a Vegan, much of that is alleviated and the people will actually learn something about what it means to be a Vegan.

  14. Tayla says:

    you aren’t vegan if you eat honey, end of.

  15. Commentator says:

    I love how vegans are so against consuming honey because it MAY be exploitation of a bee yet almost every single one of them supports a woman’s right to kill her baby. This logic indicates a mental disorder.

  16. dave dalton says:

    Hi Sophia,

    I’m about to launch a nutritional bar company, that has the extremely rare certification of 100% Certified Organic. We are also certified Gluten Free, and Kosher. All, very difficult to obtain, as I’m sure you know the difference between having these words on your label and getting them certified.

    Having said this, we have one product, honey, raw and 100% certified organic, that keeps us off the Vegan Certified list. We have taken great measures, as you might imagine, to create a product without honey, and that taste good.

    Anyway, as the owner of the company, we face enormous uphill battles to remove the honey. I am not a practicing Vegan, though at one time, I was a macro-biotic vegetarian, a vegan. It was extremely difficult, and I maintained it for about 6 months.

    Finally, if someone can be a practicing Vegan and be truly humble about it, (feigned humility is worst), then I admire that person. My motivation for starting this company to create a better world and assist people across the bridge to a better life, and perhaps the last bridge is a vegan lifestyle.

    Dave Dalton
    Founder Ebars

  17. dave dalton says:

    Your point about abortion is well taken. What Vegan would willingly take a surgeons knife, cut
    open any animals tummy, remove their offspring, and feel justified in doing it, other than to save the animals
    life perhaps. It’s an extremely difficult and complex decision. But, for me, I can’t find any moral justification
    for abortion except in extreme cases. I do have enormous empathy for a young girl, or any age for that matter who finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy. If society can’t step up to the plate and support the girl, we would probably have rampant suicide in the teenage sector, by support I don’t just mean to care for the baby, but the whole burden of shame their bear carrying the baby to term with the family feeling the pressure.

    • Sophia Gubb says:

      Re: abortion, my take is that abortion shows that the whole matter of killing can be fuzzy, just like I was talking about in this article. I wouldn’t do abortion on a whim, but I wouldn’t rule it out either. So I support choice: it’s a hard choice but it still must be a choice. And incidentally, men (in government) should not decide for women what goes on in women’s bodies.

  18. Mikael Rombach says:

    Now see i have the opposite issue. I eat honey A LOT probably three times or more a week. So giving it up is a big deal precisely because i enjoy it so much. Then again, i dont view insects as sentient beings and therefore dont draw the same lines.

  19. cori says:

    Sometimes learning the lesson of impermance is important …

  20. richard says:

    To me it is about suffering. I get my honey from a group that “saves hives” that were made in people’s houses or other places that were about to be exterminated. I feel by using this honey I’m actually helping these bees. Plus, I believe bees have a collective viewpoint on life and thus by saving the hive they don’t mind losing some honey. The people I get mine from do their best to minimize any suffering or loss of bees during the collection process. I’ve researched who I buy it from and feel I am still a vegan.
    I’m presently having my moral dilemma surrounding eggs. I have a friend that has a few chickens and they are basically pets that have a great life. They lay eggs and when she offered me some I can’t think of any logical reason to say no.
    I don’t want to live my life based on what Webster’s says. Plus, I don’t think I would be vearing off the Vegan Path as I see it.
    One of my “Crazy Vegan Friends” will be sure to say I’m basically no better than Satan himself, but in my mind their is no conflict.
    She usually says something like, “would you eat a human, than why would you eat an animal” to people. The trouble is, I would be just as likely to eat a human and I hate the fact that in my death my flesh will just be wasted meat covered in chemicals when it could and should become part of the food web.
    Anyway, this is my long winded way of saying, yes, I think you can be a vegan that eats honey. You can even be a vegan that occasionally lapses into far worse things. You might just want to add the adjective “bad” before the word. Heck, I know many Christians that do things their book tells them not to, yet they still call themselves Christians and no one seems to mind.

  21. Victoria says:

    You are so just spot on and you expressed how I feel perfectly. I also have to add that without bee farming people wouldn’t be so aware of what happens to the environment through bee deaths from pesticides. Many species are affected by climate change and air pollutants. People eating honey and thus being aware bees even exist could have a larger part to play in awareness of the importance to protect animals- if we keep messing about with the environment, honey will be gone too, along with countless other creatures we harm through daily use of non biodegradable substances. So if you’re gonna be a self righteous vegan, I hope you keep in mind all the other things that just by being a human on this earth you will affect. If the bees are looked after properly and kindly and are left with a good amount of honey to sustain themselves, and we try to maintain an environment they can live in I think that’s fairly alright.

  22. monica says:

    I’ve been all over the low fat raw vegan community trying to find answers about raw local honey and no one had given me a legit reason health wise to cut honey out of my diet. I’ve gotten comments about ethics and I’ve been told I’m not really a vegan, and yet still nothing about health. Well I’m glad I found this article and I completely agree with you. It was like reading something I would have written about honey. I honestly don’t care too much about a dying bee.. that may sound horribl, but it’s what the bees do anyway. No one has to force a bee to make honey, the bee isn’t abused. At least not in the setting where I buy my local honey from. And to me, you can’t compare it to cow puss or a hen’s period (milk and eggs) I completely understand why these products are not only unethical but unhealthy as well. But the little amount of honey I consume a year, mainly for sore throats, isn’t hurting anything

  23. shannon M says:

    I’m vegan and I eat honey… Not daily but I find very beneficial when my allergies act up. I understand that Daniel guy wrote the book on being Vegan, that’s suppose to be like the vegan bible so to speak. I don’t agree with him, on some things and I believe being vegan is what u make of it,personally, and not to follow golden rules…. He’ll a true vegan wouldn’t shop at a place that sales meat period. That’s my thoughts. But I enjoyed reading it blog.

  24. Emily says:

    Thank you for this article. I am new to veganism, and I was a little confused about whether or not honey is considered vegan. It seems like there are a lot of “vegan police” out there that will immediately discredit your vegan lifestyle if you say that you still eat honey. I too, see honey as sort of an “in between” of plants and insects. Technically, pee pollen (which is GREAT for allergies!) is a plant product, however it is simply COLLECTED by bees. Honey is made by bees from that pollen. So you can see where the line gets a little bit fuzzy.
    I also know of a few local bee farmers. They do love their bees and I don’t feel as though the bees are being harmed in any way. In nature, bees make far more honey than they actually need. So I feel like a responsible and caring bee farmer is actually helping their bees by providing them a safe place to build their hive, while making sure enough honey is left for the bees to thrive.

  25. Emily says:

    Edit to previous post: I meant BEE pollen, not PEE pollen, hehe!

  26. Jacob Claytor says:

    I think people need to look at the bigger picture here. For instance, where did you buy your clothes? If you bought them at some large department store, you can rest assured that some poor foreigners are spending most of their time each day making you those clothes for super cheap so we can have the latest fashion all so they can put food on the table (hint hint: food the might not be 100% vegan). I think before we start discussing the enethical treatment of bees, we should start with the unethical treatment of humans. I am vegan myself and though unethical treatment is part of it, it’s just healthier, but making other countries work long ass days so we can have that $20 pair of jeans is not. P.S. I occasionally eat honey. Run away in your Nikes.

  27. michelle says:

    Thank you for putting into words what I have been thinking on the honey issue. I am not perfect either nor do I try to be. I try to do my part in reducing the suffering in society of those who have no voice. In that, I also have a hard time killing plants and even pulling weeds HAHA!! You are not alone, neither am I πŸ™‚

  28. Charmy says:

    You’re awesome. Thanks for the read. Good luck on your vegan journey. I was reading about honey today. I don’t think I’ll be eating it anymore either. I’m sure to get s**t for it during a conversation in the future when I end up refusing something because it has honey in it lol. That’ll be a fun one πŸ™‚

  29. Patrick says:

    I am a strict vegan. That means I not only eat nothing but plants but I also do not use products that are made out of animal bodies. Nevertheless, I intentionally consume honey. That is to support beekeepers. Bees are essential for the propagation of plants and a world without bees would be disastrous for all its inhabitants and bees are dying all over the world. So by conscious choice I support people that profit from a healthy livestock of bees and therefore care.

  30. I just started being a Vegan – Kinda… as I call it. Basically I am doing this for my health and for the health of animals, etc however I am not one of these hard core vegan types. I am following an anti-inflammatory diet which is vegan, plus eggs and seafood and honey. I gave up flesh of land animals and milk. It is far easier to eat vegan then anti-inflammatory since people know what vegan is. Like you I don’t always eat the non vegan things. Really the meat and the milk are what was causing me most problems. Food is an individual thing and only you can be responsible for what you eat.

  31. Peter says:

    Thanks for a useful discussion. Your tone is just right for
    me. This post goes so much deeper than right/wrong. I loved you comment about maintaining a flexible outlook

    The way I see it, two valued logic, a gift from the Greeks, has gotten us to a dead end.

  32. Faii says:

    I like your argument! (Y)
    I recently became a vegan, it’s almost been a month, and accidently ate a salad with honey in its dressing and didn’t notice until it was VERY late! I ate the whole thing lol! Thing is I felt really horrible about it at first then started dissecting my feeling trying to figure out where it came from and I noticed exactly what you mentioned in the first “addition”. I felt bad because of an official term set by the veganism god or whatsoever! It wasn’t about my own beliefs or way of thinking anymore; it wasn’t anything close to why I became vegan in first place. It was just because of a definition put by a man! I am not saying I’ll go on having honey regularly or even irregularly; as long as I have the chance to avoid it, I will. I’m just saying we are not perfect. Being a vegan sometimes can put a burden over your shoulders that kind of whispers in your ear that you shall be perfect. Well, we aren’t! No one is! Your article reminded me of that and made me feel so much better. Thank you!
    Have a lovely day!
    P.S: Your last “addition” is hilarious :”D
    Maybe some day I’ll be able to get this connected to mother nature.

  33. juniper says:

    Im not a vegan;)… lol I don’t eat any animal products but honey makes me not vegan. Oh no I guess I’m a heagan

  34. nicole says:

    Refreshing to read something like this. I love to read things written by Intelligent open minded ppl like yourself. I’m vegan and hate vegans! Extremist vegans who shove their beliefs down everyone’s throats drive me crazy and honestly, they scare me. The angry passion being thrown at random ppl who eat meat and such all the time is intimidating. I literally have no vegan friends because the thought of having extremist friends freaks me out. I’m completely satisfied with my respectful omnivorous friends who take me out to vegan places. But anyways, thank you for sharing this! If all vegans thought like you a lot more ppl would be inspired to try veganism instead of just plain intimidated by it as many are! And BTW i sneak honey into my diet a couple times a year when I enjoy Burmas from Mediterranean restaurants and boy, is it good! πŸ˜‰ but if for whatever reason you ever decide to look for an alternative for your home then agave is a DELICIOUS way to go! And I’m not sharing that to influence you, just wated to inform because it is not something to be kept a secret cause its too darn tasty hahah although not as beneficial as honey can be which is a con. :/ well, thanks for sharing! Xoxo <3

  35. Jonathan m says:

    Hi.. interesting topic with some really strange responses. I am a raw food frugitarian. I’m also athletic and all my pseudo carniverous friends look at me crazy as if while I’m eating uncooked whole foods, I will surely die or starvation and protein deficiency. Of course this is not the case, but why would I care anyway what anyone thinks. I take the health side. Let’s be realistic.. We live in the land of milk and honey (no pun intended) I know along with science that my body needs living foods just like everything else in nature. I need lots and lots of.carbs, traces of fat, and proteins that have not been denatured. I’m a raw food vegan for me… my health. I cant stop the suffering in the world. Honey… however controversial, is a simple carb in its raw state and can be easily digested. Do I buy honey??? No it’s a waste my time. Will I eat honey?? Sure.. I would never allow myself to starve to death. In the wild, hypothetically, believe if it’s me or the bees ( or any other animal at that ) well I’m sorry I must choose muaw. BUT!!! I am not starving, I have access to the largest variety of whole foods in the world. I don’t have to settle.for cooked meat, dairy and cheese products, to
    Dehydrated fruits and nuts, serial grains and .processed foods (which are just as bad as animal proteins and fats) I can eat what my body has evolved to digest properly and is intended. I’m healthy, because I practice health. Let’s bee real, πŸ™‚ honey is a raw food from nature that the body can easily digest… peanut butter ( a favorite vegan food )-is loaded with fat ( trans ) has been processed and is pure junk. So I’m sorry if I sound like a prick, not my intention, but a vegan who practice 60% or more of calories from fat might as well eat beef or dairy. But honey is a natural occurrence in nature. Embrace it…..Or don’t and eat what you feel is best for you. I love all my vegan brothers and sisters. And p.s. I do care about the environment and animal rights and agree there needs to be more vegan minded people for the ethical treatment of our natural environment.. but the world is not perfect, neither am I, so I can only be aware and make changes as needed.

  36. I completely agree with you. The important idea behind veganism, vegetarianism and such is to be conscious about your impact in the world. Hell, I don’t see anything wrong with eating meat (I don’t do so, though) once in a while.
    But the important thing: If you eat meat, make sure at least that the animal who had to sacrifice its life to feed you had a good life before. Therefore, more than eating a farm animal that spent its life in the pastures and had a sunny life before being slaughtered on a field by its owner, I shun eating yoghurts and dairy products from dairy farms that keep the animals in a crammed space with no possibility to even see the sky and meadow, and with a fucking tunnel to the stomach on their back. Mentioning that, I’d like to say I do not eat farm animals, because even if I wanted, I am not a farmer and don’t take care about sheep/cows/chickens, therefore I don’t deserve their sacrifice. Nor do I eat yoghurts and such, reason is the same and the mentioned.
    Saying that, when hungry I would have no problem eating fish, had I been able to fish for them in a river or eat a hunted animal, had I been able to do so. But I despise killing for trophies. To survive, i don’t see a problem. But those times are long gone, and (maybe not) long to come.
    I don’t have a problem eating HONEY (there’s the original topic). In my country, beekeeping is more of a folklore than an industry, people in general wouldn’t buy honey in malls. I myself know a few beekeepers personally, and I know for sure, that their first concern is to sustain the bees. If there is a risk of them not being able to recreate the taken honey, the vast majority of beekeepers wouldn’t take any. And it happens. There were years that asking about buying a jar or two, the response was along the lines of “Sorry Jan, it has been a cold/rainy/hard summer, the bees weren’t able to produce much and I need to let them keep it.”
    I’m not sure, however, how this works in other countries, but in the Czech Republic, I don’t feel bad about that.
    Finally, to support your ideas here. Anything you eat brings a loss, be it small or big, to other organisms. The important thing is never to let the harm be unnecessary. If anyone likes and can’t give up meat, fine. But maybe they can think: Do I really need a meat-dish ten times a week or could I really satisfy my needs with e.g. a “home-breeded” organic steak once in a week or two and a fish fillet the other time? In my opinion, if all the “meat-eaters” did that at once, it would be a damn-huge improvement.

    Cheers from Pilsen, the city of good beer, Czech Republic.

  37. […] Die hard vegans will shun honey and all of it’s by-products. While I have read up on the topic, I remain neutral in my approach. And I admit I do not avoid products containing honey or beeswax. For a thoughtful article written by a honey-eating vegan, click here. […]

  38. Ellie says:

    I found this article because I follow a vegan diet and currently I am following a recipe calling for pure maple syrup but all I can find in the house is some honey.
    I hardly ever eat honey, but whenever I’m faced with the opportunity to (granola bars, honey with tea, etc) I get this fear that I won’t be able to call myself a vegan anymore if I do. Ask me why I’m vegan and I’ll say it’s for stopping the suffering of animals, but deep down, I think part of the reason I went vegan is because I LOVE the ability to call myself a vegan. I definitely get the feeling I’m morally superior to omnivores and even to vegetarians. Which is NOT the reason anyone should be vegan.
    I now try to say things like “oh I don’t eat animals or animal byproducts” instead of “I’m vegan.” I do this because 1.) telling everyone I know that I’m vegan probs makes me seems like a douche, and 2.) because why do I need to fit a certain definition to feel good about myself? People do good things all the time. Some vegans are probably horrible people. I chose not to eat certain foods for reasons personal to me. Yes I might say “oh I’m vegan” or “this meal is vegan” if it speeds up the conversation, but in general I really want to eliminate the term ‘vegan’ from my vocabulary.
    So to sum it up, whether or not I continue to eat honey (which for now is yes because this honey hasn’t been eaten since we got it, and it was a gift from a friend who I believe to be is a good beekeeper), it doesn’t matter because I know the boundaries of my diet that I am comfortable with and I need to not make it anyone else’s business.

  39. Joe says:

    Honey /ˈhʌni/ is a sweet food made by bees using nectar from flowers ( thus honey would not be around without plants ) . It’s plant based (nectar) in a court of law the honey lover’s would win.

  40. Barbara M says:

    Full disclosure–I am not vegan, but I have friends who are and am sometimes invited to potluck events, hence my question about eating honey. I read your arguments about exploitation of the bees etc. I have bees myself (though not to the point of being able to harvest honey from them), so I buy the honey I use in baking. BUT, I only buy from local beekeepers that do not overharvest, nor clip the queen’s wings, nor put a lot of toxic chemicals in the hive, nor send them all over the country pollinating stuff so they have to end up feeding them only plain junk sugar. And I will do the same once my bees become sustainable. Sometimes, in bee management, an underperforming queen might have to be killed (kind of like euthanizing your tomato plant that was obviously dying and in need of assistance in leaving this life), but left to their own devices the worker bees may kill an underperforming queen themselves. So, since I don’t like using white sugar (and raw honey is a world apart from that), and don’t like the taste of maple syrup as a sweetener other than on pancakes, am I limited to only savory type snacks?

  41. Dave says:

    I feel like though bees will be harmed in the process of bee farming, there’s also a benefit to it. If you imagine if all the bee farms were taken away over night, the population of bees would decline incredibly. There’s no where near enough space for them to live in the wild happily so I think especially hobbyist bee keepers are actually helping the bee. After all, none of them are going to offer the bees a home for no reason other than to give them a home

  42. Emily S. says:

    I guess what’s confusing to me about your statement is that you claim to not eat honey on the regular, so it’s not worth the hassle for you to try and abstain from it. If you so rarely have it, it should be easy for you to not eat honey anymore. Why draw the line there when it is so easy to give it up? I don’t get your logic as to why bees are more deserving of trauma than other animals…

  43. Donna Emmett says:

    I understand about harming bees,, but just this year 2015 they have a way and new system to get the honey with out even Disturbing the Hive,, all you do is put the jar under the hose, turn the bar , and the honey pours out , when full you close, and not bees were disurb,, New Invention – Flow.. https://www.facebook.com/flowhive/

  44. Marisa says:

    I just heard the other day that honey isnt vegan and i wanted to know why because honestly i just do not know very much about farming practices and i assumed getting honey was like picking an apple off a tree. I dont call myself any certain thing, i mostly eat fruit and vegetables i dont think any of the fruit i eat ever gets cooked and veggies i am about 50/50. I was never a huge meat eater and i am lactose intolerant and never a fan of eggs either so i was basically what people immediately think when they think of vegan anyways but i never felt right calling myself that because it was based more on my dietary appeal rather than harm of animals. Dont get me wrong i think mindlessly having animals suffer is terrible but i dont think if someone occasionally has a piece of fish or a spoon of honey that they are doing wrong and shouldnt be allowed to call themselves whatever they choose. I had a friend in school who ate pepperoni on her pizza and fried chicken and processed food but said she was vegetatarian because she rarely had red meat and i didnt agree with her definition but who am i to tell her that, at least she was avoiding red meat so she was trying to make an effort. I was always mostly vegan without trying but still to the day dont feel deserving of the term vegan. By the way, i used to eat a ton of honey, i still eat it occasionally but i havent bought a bottle in 6 months and it is still almost full. If I were to give myself a name i would say i was a natural eater meaning that i choose foods that come from nature, like some processed junk foods are vegan but i dont eat processed foods, couldnt tell you the last time i did. I dont know if i believe you “need” a certain number or percent of vitamins minerals fats etc, i think it is a suggestion based on an average and if we all tried to eat to 100% without suppliments we would be sick from eating so much. I just eat what is natural and feels right and if that includes honey than so be it.

  45. Mannek says:

    I just don’t get why you are comparing bees to animals. Bees are part of the animal kingdom.

  46. Jamie says:

    I don’t understand any of this…. I am trying to eat whole foods and completely get away from the “American Diet”. I was raised on a farm, we had bees.. we loved and respected them. There was never any harm that came to them (from us). I am 52 now and eat lot’s of “raw” honey (the health benefits are incredible). I know several people who are bee keepers. There main goal is to “protect” the bees. They spend lot’s of money buying them “Protein” and extra things to keep them Healthy and alive. I don’t get it? At all… Bees are going extinct because of the B.S GMO’s . Responsible Bee Keeper’s are doing everything they can to “protect” the Bees. Honey is a “Gift” from God………. so don’t by processes, mass produced Honey .. Duh!

  47. Kimberly Boone says:

    Hey there, I am basically in the same boat you are when it comes to honey. I’ve been vegan for 3 years now. I had a run in with a chef the other day who told me I’m “vegan lite” for eating honey. For me, a lot of my vegan reasoning comes from both welfare and health issues. I have already attained my biology and dietetics degrees. I will be graduating with my master’s in clinical nutrition this coming December. We know meat, dairy, eggs, etc. are not good for us – plain and simple. However, the same cannot be said for honey. But, I just wanted to correct you about one thing. Bees are insects, yes this is true. But, insects are in fact animals. All organisms in the animal kingdom have six common characteristics, including being multicellular, heterotrophic and mobile at some life-cycle stage. They also include sexual reproduction, quick responses to stimuli and the absence of cell walls. Some of these characteristics, for example, sexual reproduction, occur in organisms from other kingdoms, but organisms with all six of these characteristics are animals. Insects belong to the largest phylum of the animal kingdom and are called arthropods. According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, insects are members of the Arthropoda phylum and make up 84 percent of all the known animals on Earth.

  48. Shane K says:

    I feel that if you are going to eat honey, don’t run out and buy some factory-produced honey. Go buy it local from the real heroes. The guys out there preserving hives and helping the bee populations grow. It’s the mass distributed stuff that is harm-related. As a beekeeper, we take the utmost pride in caring and loving our bees and ensuring that no harm comes to them. Bees are our friends and they give us the gift of honey. I just decided to become Vegan and was wondering about honey, when I stumbled on this article. Thank you.

  49. Allison Straight says:

    This is beautiful and informative all in one. This really helped me. I’ve seen too many vegans saying YOU ARE NOT VEGAN IF YOU EAT HONEY. How can some body degrade another human trying to make such a beautiful impact on the planet because they eat honey? I actually have been thinking about it non stop. Whether I should feel guilty or not. Then last night in the organic section of my grocery store I saw a jar of honey that actually went towards helping save the bees. There are so many factors it’s just absurd to shame a vegan because of honey.

  50. Kate says:

    You may like to know about Flow Hive. They have developed a unit that is kinder to both bee keepers and bees πŸ™‚
    https://www.honeyflow.com.au/

  51. Kaley says:

    Yo I know I’m like way late in this conversation haha but I figured I’d just put in my input. Just as background info I’m not really vegan because I do eat meat, not a ton of meat but more meat than a vegan. But I do limit myself bc I feel for the animals.
    Okay so my mom “farms” bees. She likes to think of them more as pets. We have 1 happy be house in our backyard. The main reason we have a bee house is to help with the garden and our apple trees. The way I see it is we gave them a cool looking house, food, and an “unlimited” water supply (at least to them it is) and in return we get a plus in fruits and veggies.
    She does steal honey from them and she honestly feels bad about it every single time. But when you have terrible pollen allergies honestly I’ve not found s better natural solution than eating honey from your own backyard.
    Since having the bee house my family has a new appreciation and respect for bees. I never swat away or threaten bees anymore and its so sad when you see a little worker bee laying to her rest, but just know that it died doing what it was made for: working.
    Honestly don’t know how the bees feel but I feel like we have a nice little relationship going on.
    oh also having bees forces you to not use any pesticides or any chemicals really bc it will harm them and then it would be bad for both parties

  52. Annie says:

    That is an interesting take on the subject. As a vegan, I have heard all of the arguments. “You are stealing the honey from the bees!” Or “Who cares? Bees are just insects.” And basically everything else in between. I do not eat honey, but personally, it isn’t because of (as some have put it) “bee cruelty”, but rather the fact that I cannot get myself to eat bee barf. I respect your decision, and, maybe if I wasn’t such a barf-hater, I’d eat it, too. Good for you.

  53. Kt says:

    Just wanted to say your article put things in perspective. Blindly following the doctrine set out by the guy who coined the term vegan is a step backwards. Those who say that you aren’t vegan for eating honey are hypocrites, as modern living in itself will envitably result in some harm being caused down the line whether in the shoes we wear or the phones we use. All we can do is our best and life is too short to stress about this stuff. Peace πŸ™‚

  54. Zoey Hickman says:

    I really want to go vegan, but I used honey in a lot of things as a sugar substitute (in tea, oatmeal, coffee, etc) so I wanted to find at least one person who would tell me that I maybe, possibly could still be considered vegan if I still ate honey. It’s not because I don’t care about bees, I promise. I even buy all of my honey from local vendors because I know they are treating the bees better, but I just don’t want to substitute sugar for it. Thank you for writing this and making me feel better about this!

  55. Lizzie Hempel says:

    Great article.
    I myself have recently adopted more of a vegan lifestyle. My children and my partner still eat normally, so this has been a bit of a challenge for me.
    11 days into my veganism I discovered an almost completely untouched jar of local raw honey in one of the storage boxes downstairs. So I was faced with a bit of an ethical dilemma. Do I consume it or do I bin it? (I couldn’t give it away as I had already opened it, and the kids like their ‘normal’ honey). Besides which, is binning something that has already been produced and purchased an ethical choice? I figured not.
    Anyway, I awoke this morning with a nasty case of what looked to be pink eye, so it was most fortunate that I chose to keep the jar. It was so bad that the eyeball itself even appeared to be swollen. Salt water wasn’t licking it, so I added a small amount of raw honey to a dropper bottle, filled the remainder of the bottle with some warm water, shook it up and applied a few drops to the infected eye. Within half an hour flat….success! My pink eye was completely cured. No redness, no swelling, everything back to normal. Thank you intuition and thank you local bees!

  56. Carolyn says:

    Excellent
    To each his own

  57. Cpiper says:

    I am not a full vegan. I try, but sometimes because of my other dietary restrictions, if I know that my mother in law made a soup and she put chicken in it that her intent was good. I can’t call myself a vegan. I do have something to say about bees. My dad is a bee keeper. He is trying to help people and the environment. He really enjoys it. He will take hives away from people who are scarred and don’t want them in their yards or homes. He has been a beekeeper for 25 years. It is hard after seeing him do it and help the bees for me to think it is bad. He treats them well in my opinion. I think that bees are living creatures, but we have to eat something. A plant based diet is the best for most people’s health and for the environment. I enjoyed reading this blog post.

  58. Thanks for writing this article, and for the updates. I like how after you wrote it, you changed your mind. And I love this line: “Stop trying to think you are perfect just because you are vegan.” We all do what we can, and that’s all we can do.

    I think if eating honey is the only issue stopping someone from going vegan, then they should just eat honey. I’ve been vegan for 3.5 months now and the first couple of months I avoided honey, but then one of my friends gave me a jar of honey from her backyard bees and I ate it. It’s really hard to avoid all products with honey in them because a lot of breads have honey as an ingredient. So while I’m not going to buy jars of honey in the grocery store, I’m also not going to draw a hard line against honey in other situations. If I want to eat at a friend’s house and the meal is vegan except for honey being an ingredient in the bread or something like that, I’m probably going to eat it.

  59. enviroartiste says:

    honey has always made me think. i’ve been vegan for about 12 years now i think, and over 20 years vegetarian. i’ve been thinking about adding honey back in for health purposes. i was always turned off by bee vomit, and try to stay away. if it happened to be in something i had, i didn’t sweat it. my mother is an advocate for bees and believes they can die off if we don’t buy their products. i listen to all the facts i hear and it confuses me more than ever. TO BEE OR NOT TO BEE, that is the question. I have been researching my health issues and time again i’m told honey might help with that. i also get the is honey vegan question. i’ve never said no or yes, i say that’s debatable. it’s always something i’m perplexed about myself, still to this day.

  60. Neil S says:

    I found this interesting and can offer a perspective as a 30-year Amateur beekeeper. My bees always have sufficient honey stores after I take the surplus. I treat my bees well and can say that modern hives are far healthier and safer for bee colonies than wild hive locations. Very few die due to my intervention but wild hives frequently suffer privations and extinction because of their tenuous circumstances. Yes, bee keepers do replace queens every few years but hives frequently do so themselves of their own accord and also brutally force out drones and injured, tired and imperfect worker bees. Ultimately, the choice for vegans is to slavishly follow Watson’s definition of veganism or make a considered and balanced decision about the pros and cons of a particular food (and wax) .source. I know which choice makes more sense to me.

  61. Alberto says:

    Hello, I agree with you. we are not perfect. but, to help you out, there are sooooo many substitutes for honey, though. all those syrups out there (maple, agave, etc). I am a vegetarian (whose goal is to be vegan) as much as I can in a country where there aren’t many affordable alternatives to eating meat. but I have made peace with myself and I am ok with it.

  62. Rachel says:

    Yes! I eat honey and then sometimes, mostly online, when I mention that I’m vegan but I occasionally eat honey people freak out and tell me I’m not really vegan or I can’t call myself a vegan. Great points, my thoughts exactly.

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